angel and I talk about love and ecstacy and self-involvement. highlights include hopelessly strung-out metaphors about flattery and straightforwardness, and a suggestion that an ideal world would be ecstacy-induced.
in which Guillermo shares a wonderful poem and his recently-hatched experiment in which he will plot out his writing's and his emotional moods in an attempt to reduce poetry to formula. but oh what wonderful elegant math it will be. it's really much more intriguing than i'm letting on, but that's just cuz i'm stuck on the idea of art being irrational so i'm pleasantly, passively sabotaging the whole affair. make sure you check out the links in the conversation. both are worth the effort.
starting with a scathing rhyme the strips down the male psyche from the inside, this conversation (with a man (or woman) that has asked to remain anonymous) quickly spiraled harrowingly down into a philosophical mess about art and aesthetics and math and freedom and others.
but that's a story for another day. today me and he were talking about insecurity and about arbitrariness and the legitimacy of criticism. i'm not sure he appreciated mine
getting to know all aboouut me. it's not a 100-things list, but it is some bulleted facts (some essential but most just essential. if you know what i mean)
a crash course on how i write and how i talk and how i usually talk about myself and why i talk about my self (and it's not really all that annoyingly self-centered...try it. you'll like it.)
3.13.2002
angels Have relaTionship Issues, Too
angel: hey billy: hi angel
billy: how you been?
angel: i dunno billy: oh...what's up?
angel: do you think an uneven relationship is worth it if both parties care a lot? billy: uneven how?
angel: like one person likes the other more billy: one likes the other more but they both like each other a lot?
billy: yeah, it's worth it
angel: yes angel: what are the perks of being equal billy: the perks...i don't know
billy: less friction
billy: but if there's no friction between you and someone you kind of doubt they have their own identity
billy: so are you the one who likes more or less?
angel: does it matter? angel: why is it that girls need to hear the words so badly? angel: why is it i desire to conform when unique is an ideal? angel: why do i have to lie to myself to see if my emotions fit the standard billy: lol...could i have a minute on those?
angel: yes billy: ok
angel: so? billy: sorry, something came up. one sec.
angel: its ok angel: if you're busy you don't have to sit here and answer my stupid questions billy: i would imagine people need to hear i love you because they have a wrong idea about love. i don't really think love is something you do to the other person and that they respond to (at least it shouldn't be - cuz then love would be a very commercial thing). love is something you have for someone cuz of who they are. and it's something worth having for itself. although it is nice if they have the same for you. but you shouldn't feel motivated by someone's feelings for you either. love isn't an obligation and it's not a debt to be paid. and i'm sorry if i sound too philosophic
billy: but are you kidding...i'm pleasantly surprised that you're even still talking to me
angel: why is that billy: about the second two questions...i don't know. and i don't feel comfortable just guessing. especially after our last conversation
angel: what did we talk about angel: i forgot billy: you were upset or bothered or pissed or something (at least you seemed like it) about me worrying about you lately
billy: and you weren't sure why i cared
angel: i decided to burn all of my journals angel: page by page billy: when? why?
angel: after i get home from cali angel: do you want to come to my burning ceremony? angel: it would really mean a lot if someone was there but i can't decide who billy: when did you go to cali? spring break
billy: i'll come, but why are you doing it?
billy: not that i'm trying to talk you down from it or anything
billy: burning just seems a bit elaborate
billy: like you're trying to do something with the burning
angel: i decided that i've been clinging to the past too long angel: and the only way i can forgot the lies i made myself believe is if i burn the past billy: isn't recognizing they were lies enough?
billy: burning just means you won't be able to read them
billy: but the lies didn't come from your journal
angel: the thing is... angel: i say this but in my head i don't completely believe it angel: every time i read it its just reinforcing the lies billy: so you think it's lies but you're not convinced that it is lies. and every time you read the lies you start thinking maybe they're true?
angel: something like that billy: and why do you think they're lies...if you don't mind my asking?
angel: even if they weren't lies i want to forget billy: you know people become alcoholics because they're trying to forget
billy: angel
billy: what were you lying to yourself about?
angel: you think just because you use my name i'll tell you billy: was it that heavy-handed
billy: ignore the question then
billy: sorry
angel: it’s just that... angel: well, this has nothing to do with it really, angel: but your poetry, you know how you say its meant to evoke a underlying mood and not conveying some deep message or defining thought? billy: yeah
angel: well, that's how i feel about myself...i'm so vague and unfocused, but when i write it sounds like i'm trying to clarify my thoughts and feelings which is completely futile, and in the end i'm just lying to myself about everything, but what is the other option? billy: why do you feel like you're lying to yourself just cuz you're vague and unfocused?
billy: or is that not why
angel: it’s not that angel: i'm lying to myself because i'm using words created by other people to define myself angel: when i don't even know the meaning of those words billy: so make up your own words
billy: make up your own definitions
billy: draw your own pictures
billy: it works
angel: that's fine for myself, but what happens when other people get involved? billy: people are smart enough to communicate without a developed language
billy: i mean...do you get anything from what i write?
billy: cuz i honestly don't write for you
angel: online or your poetry? billy: poetry (if my writing's just a mess though ignore this train of thought)
angel: what do you mean by get anything billy: do you feel like any understanding and any level has been communicated to you through the writing...whether it's about myself or just about stuff in general?
billy: but you're right though...words, especially the ones people share, just aren't gonna fit individuals
angel: yet i still feel the need to try billy: which is very understandable...but knowing that words aren't going to fit into all of your nooks and crannies, you shouldn't hold it against yourself or them, when they can't paint an exact picture
billy: which is why i write like an abstract impressionist
angel: that’s the only way to truthfully write angel: i wish other people understood too billy: they'll understand the underlying, but they have different frames of context that those energies play out in
angel: but i feel the need to use and hear certain strong words angel: such as love to be specific billy: so use it
angel: i did and now i regret it billy: cuz he didn't say it back
angel: not only that but because i don't even know if it’s true angel: but that’s not the frustrating thing angel: i don't care that he didn't say it back billy: oh...what is
angel: if he had i would've been upset still billy: cuz you don't know if it's true
angel: not only that billy: what else?
angel: but it just sounds so stupid....if you're happy why do you feel the need to say something like that? is it going to improve the situation? billy: what does happy have to do with the need to say something
billy: expression shouldn't always be about manipulating the situation...especially around love
angel: it just seems to me that once you realize something like that and put it into words, it’s like you're waking up from a dream billy: yeah, but shouldn't love be able to survive reality?
angel: for a poet angel: for everyone else angel: probably not billy: is it love if it can't?
angel: who's definition of love angel: mine? never billy: all poetry is is tailoring language to fit yourself
angel: i agree billy: maybe it is part of your definition of love but you gloss over it cuz you want to have love
angel: yeah that’s my problem angel: sad but true billy: so be happy with having something that isn't love but is what it is
billy: or not
angel: it’s too late angel: i've already "defined" my feelings angel: i can't take it back without aggravating the situation billy: not at all...everything is constantly redefined. especially when we define by relation
angel: once again, in the inner/poetic world, but when other people are involved it just seems foolish billy: what's wrong with an aggravated situation? i mean, you are willing to light a fire to ease your conscience, right?
angel: i guess i care too much about what others think angel: but if love truly exists in the world why should i right? billy: not just that...if you care about someone, shouldn't you give them something real to hold on to
billy: instead of leaving them leaning against something that you can't give them
angel: yes that’s true billy: so yes, you do owe it to yourself to consider their feelings, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't aggravate the situation
angel: but if it’s you who is truly truly loving, can you still love shamelessly without ever being reciprocated angel: or do you have to take that love back? billy: hmm...i wanna say that it's not love if you are bothered by a lack of reciprocation. but i don't think love is just for perfect people
billy: (at least, i'm not sure enough of it to tell it to someone who is trying to figure it out)
billy: but the expectation of reciprocation isn't part of love, it's part of an imperfect person loving.
billy: and there's no guarantee that love will be easy
billy: and i'm sorry if i sound like an asshole for saying all of that
angel: so in order to keep my ideal of love true and pure i have to be miserable for the rest of my life right? angel: so human's imperfection is actually the result of wanting to be happy billy: lol...you don't have to be miserable the rest of your life. but friction comes from imperfection, so unless you're perfect, you're gonna have to deal with friction
billy: i haven't figured out why people aren't perfect yet, but i'll let you know
billy: i don't think it's cuz we want to be happy
angel: well it doesn't matter anyway billy: no, i guess it doesn't
billy: so when were you planning the book burning?
angel: whenever i get back angel: i saw your cousin billy: oh it's spring break now huh
billy: my cousin?
billy: heather
angel: heather angel: at a rave angel: on sat billy: where are you now?
angel: home billy: and the journals are at school?
angel: yea angel: so have you ever rolled billy: on e
billy: i've never done anything but smoke weed and drink and i quit both of those a long time ago
angel: is that a no? angel: ok angel: just wondering billy: yeah, that's a no
billy: so you done it or just curious?
angel: i just recently tried it for the first time billy: and?
angel: i think everyone should try it just once angel: unless they have addictive impulses billy: really, why?
angel: after you've experience that kind of happiness, its hard to forget billy: what kind of happiness?
billy: and you don't sound very happy now...not even residually
angel: i'm normal angel: maybe i've been talking about love and happiness a lot as a result of rolling angel: when you roll, its the best feeling in the world billy: when did you...saturday?
angel: you're soooo happy because you feel so loved angel: yea angel: that’s when i thought i may actually be in love with whom we've been discussing billy: lol
billy: just blame it on the ecstasy then
angel: cuz even though there were thousands of people there who you feel completely connected with, i was still thinking about how much i wanted him there angel: whatever billy: that sounds legitimate
billy: especially if you've thought about it since then
angel: yea i guess billy: why aren't you sure you love him?
angel: good question angel: because if love like this isn't reciprocated, the world is a very very cruel place billy: it may well be...but you're doubting that you love him cuz you love him
angel: lol, yea now i'm just confusing myself angel: is getting hurt so bad? billy: not at all...especially since it's in the past
angel: lol billy: i'm jealous though...1) cuz you think you love someone, and 2) cuz it's not me
angel: i'm hoping the impact will be less if i burn the past now maybe the drugs will help me forget billy: but yeah, you can live with pain
billy: lol...yes, burn the past and burn the hash
angel: i think its better to live with pain especially for people like you billy: and forget everything else
angel: what else will you write about billy: people like me?
angel: yea...that seems the best answer billy: i don't really try and write about pain and i'm an overwhelmingly happy and high and naive and idealistic person
billy: you do realize i was kidding about all the burning
angel: i wasn't billy: i don't think it's a good idea at all...either way
billy: i know
angel: you know why i like talking to you? you seem to have mastered the english language angel: everything you say is relevant and makes sense angel: that’s what its like to roll angel: you can say everything you ever wanted to say but didn't know how billy: Bob said he felt the same way on Ritalin
angel: really? billy: but i don't hear that often about myself...most people think i'm too tangential or skip too many steps
angel: maybe i should give that a try angel: that’s not true angel: you skip the obvious billy: yeah, he said he felt really lucid and energetic
billy: well thank you
angel: i feel like you can read my mind sometimes angel: that’s something else about x angel: it makes you so empathetic angel: you can truly feel everyone else's love and pain billy: i think you should know though...i'm against using drugs to achieve results. you should do it through will alone. i think
billy: yeah, i've heard that
angel: is bob around now? angel: or is he away for break angel: never mind billy: nope...he's at home in scenic bastrop for the whole break
angel: i suddenly stopped caring angel: is rush in a band? angel: what were you being a groupie for billy: caring?...about where bob was for the break
billy: yeah, rush is in a band
billy: wanna read my review of their first show?
angel: what kind angel: not really angel: i'm sorry billy: lol...ok
angel: i have to write something billy: it's hard rock, with punk influences and other stuff
angel: i see billy: ok, well i'll let you write then
billy: can you call me about the ceremony though
angel: do you feel bad that i use you for your good advice billy: 512.303.9519
angel: can you email it to me? angel: i won't remember billy: not at all...i felt bad that i might be assuming too much in giving you advice
billy: yeah, no problem
angel: you probably assume the right things billy: i really would like to go out to dinner sometime though
billy: if your fiancee isn't
billy: t the type to mind
angel: see, if i were like you i wouldn't feel the need to want to do drugs angel: my fiancee? angel: he's not billy: you can be like me angel....there's a 12-step program
angel: what's step 1 angel: see even though you're kidding i believe you billy: you just wanna believe me
billy: but believe me, being yourself is a wonderful thing
angel: i want to think that everything you say is infallible angel: except the things you say to feed my ego angel: no, being yourself is a wonderful thing angel: being myself is vague and confusing billy: i want to think everything i say is infallible
billy: but being myself is out of sync with a lot of people. which is really frustrating when i think about it cuz i really want to love someone
billy: and have someone love me
billy: and have lots of little children
angel: o gross i'm going to puke angel: lol jk angel: i don't want to think of you that way angel: as a human billy: why not?
angel: i dunno angel: that’s my answer if i do know but don't know how to say it angel: instead of lying to you i'll give you my real answer billy: but isn't i dunno lying. since you do know...if you want to tell me you don't know how to say it, i can take that and stop bothering you about the other, unsay-able answer
billy: which you've done. so i won't tease you anymore
angel: i'm so addicted to love...i didn't realize it until after i rolled billy: yeah...but you don't want a cheap imitation. that just leads to a harsh high and a painful crash
billy: and more addiction
angel: where else will i find it angel: omg that’s so sad angel: but you've never tried it angel: its not like a cheap imitation billy: do you have a real love to compare it to?
angel: i have God billy: so god and e give you the same feeling? (i've always thought god was a drug anyway...but we're not talking about me)
angel: with God i have to try a little harder. angel: can't i have both billy: i'm sure you can...well i'm not sure, but i don't know at all. and you really feel like you love god and god loves you and that makes life good (you know, how you felt on e except for a longer time)?
angel: honestly, God has never made me as happy as ecstacy has billy: i believe you...which is why i should've asked if you've ever been in love with a person before
billy: do you have a basis for comparison...can you tell whether or not ecstacy is a cheap imitation?
billy: how can it not be, when it's just a pill
billy: and at the same time, i've never done it before so take all this with a grain of salt
billy: but i have been in love before (i'm almost certain even in hindsight), and i can tell you that i can still get high thinking about that
angel: the only time i have ever felt as energized and happy as i felt on e was after spending hours with him and coming back home and falling asleep thinking of him angel: but even that was short lasting and fickle angel: e is different, because everyone loves you not just one person angel: and you are completely without inhibitions angel: its like a truth serum angel: it makes you understand love so much more angel: which is sad, because you wonder if love is only chemical angel: but then afterwards you still have the positive energy and good vibes and maybe its not chemical but mental and spiritual angel: anyway angel: i have a headache angel: maybe i shouldn't talk anymore angel: i'm not making sense angel: but then again do i ever billy: you make sense enough that i keep talking to you
billy: why did you say that you ignore me when i'm flattering you earlier?
angel: i don't remember billy: don't worry about it
angel: i dislike flattery in general billy: but do you separate it from honesty or just consider all compliments flattery (cuz i agree, flattery is useless and misleading)
billy: and empty
angel: any compliment makes feel awkward and more aware of being cocky and self-involved angel: i don't really know how to react billy: you're not gonna get past being self-involved
angel: what do you mean billy: you are yourself and a huge part of that is yourself
billy: it is self-involved but that doesn't mean it's wrong
billy: and i've never seen a convincing argument that people do anything unselfish
billy: even if they give their life for someone, it's because they think that is what they should do and they want to do what they should do
billy: of course that might just be semantics
billy: my mom accuses me of it all the time
angel: i don't know what we're talking about anymore angel: its obviously something you feel strongly about but i don't give a shit billy: lol
angel: see stuff like that angel: makes me want to be less self-involved billy: stuff like what?
angel: completely losing interest when it doesn't matter to my life personally billy: if you want to feel less self-involved (and once again it seems like semantics) then conceptualize the whole world you live in as a part of yourself
angel: my head really hurts angel: i think semantics make a world of difference billy: i'm not sure you should be interested if it doesn't affect your personally. but i'll let you go if you wanted to get off and rest your head
angel: lol angel: you make me feel like an old lady billy: lol...i try
billy: yeah, but people think there is no substance in semantics
angel: how can they say that when everything that is is based upon it angel: wait angel: that’s not what i mean to say angel: do you get it? billy: i do get it...and i agree. but most people see semantics and they think rhetorical tricks to win arguments, not finely tuned language that is trying to capture the nuances of existence
billy: wait
billy: that's not what i mean to say
billy: do you get it?
angel: lol angel: are you mocking me? angel: cuz yes i do get it billy: lol...just teasing
billy: but with no ill intent
angel: what i don't get angel: is how you can still find me interesting to talk to when i don't make sense and have no depth to me. angel: its like a constant mind guessing game angel: that most people quickly tire of billy: dude...didn't i tell you earlier that most people don't think i make sense
billy: ingrid (my ex-girlfriend) always gets pissed at me for it
angel: but you make perfect sense angel: i'm the one that doesn't make sense billy: so you say, but i haven't had a problem understanding you
angel: how strange billy: bizarre
angel: but you understand most people don't you? angel: i understand most everyone but myself angel: well, i understand myself, angel: but i've found there's nothing to understand angel: and that’s what i don't understand angel: lol...or maybe i'm just going in circles angel: and i'm a nobody billy: why are you a nobody?
angel: because everything that i am is actually everyone else and there is no part of me that is truly me billy: except that everyone else is a part of you. so at the very least you're a bundle of nerves and sense organs and emotions (which is a much more wonderful thing than people realize)...but you also think about those things all on your own. what more do you want to be?
angel: i want to have a soul billy: one that you're aware of?
angel: why wouldn't you be aware of having a soul billy: for the same reason you might not be aware of exactly what criteria a teacher is grading you by...maybe god wants to judge your personal intent and not your desire to pass the class
angel: i like what you said billy: hush...
angel: ? billy: i don't handle compliments well either
angel: how do you handle them billy: i fondle them actually
angel: lol angel: then i would say you handle them very well billy: it all depends on how the compliments feel about it
billy: some of them say they've been violated
billy: and that i don't respect their personal space
angel: don't listen to them...they say one thing and mean another billy: i tend to do the same thing to metaphors
angel: they actually like it billy: i have to take them at face value...otherwise they'll never realize they should wear their emotions on their sleeves and leave the games behind
billy: and i'll get caught up in all the double meanings and guessing games too
angel: i can't tell if you're being serious or just extending the metaphor billy: i'm being serious, but i'm ignoring the metaphor and talking about girls now and people in general (without telling you that i'm doing so) except that now i told you
billy: the metaphor might still work but i'm not taking the time to figure it out
billy: feel free though
angel: girls aren't hard to figure out angel: compliments either billy: i'm sure they're not...but once you have to start figuring the figuring takes on a life of its own
angel: the figuring is just an extension of you billy: exactly
angel: so its not the girl but you? billy: but it masquerades as "what the other person really thinks" behind the porcelain doll face they hold up
angel: isn't it comforting knowing they're thinking the same thing billy: yeah, it's me. or whoever's doing the figuring, but people learn to figure cuz other people start hiding, purposefully or not
billy: it would be very comforting knowing someone was thinking what they were showing, which is why i try to act like they are
angel: that’s not what i mean billy: oh
angel: let me clarify billy: ok
billy: please do
angel: isn't it comforting knowing they're trying to figure the figuring out just as you are? so unless you don't care at all both are confused billy: lol...comforting. frustrating. it's just semantics i guess
angel: i think its a great comfort knowing someone feels the same way angel: that’s something else e has taught me angel: maybe that’s why love should be reciprocated angel: its not about reciprocating love billy: but you're just guessing they feel the same way. unless they tell you. in which case they are straight up saying how they feel and you're not figuring
billy: which is good
angel: its more about empathy billy: but do you really want to say love "should" be reciprocated...like that your love is a moral obligation on someone
angel: try e and then you'll know what i mean billy: sorry honey
angel: you're the one that should be sorry billy: lol
billy: that sounded real funny
billy: not that i couldn't change my mind about e or any other drug, but i don't feel like it yet
angel: no love shouldn't be reciprocated angel: but in an ideal world (e induced) everyone loves everyone billy: really...why is that so ideal?
angel: you feel the community, you don't have to hide anything. you can just be yourself without fearing what other people think, cuz they all love you billy: and then love becomes very run-of-the-mill and nothing so spectacular as to pine about reciprocation
angel: you can go up to any stranger and be best friends in a second angel: you can talk to anyone angel: why does it have to be special angel: can't it just be and can't we just be satisfied with that billy: apparently not
billy: cuz it is what it is and we're looking for more
angel: if we think that way we'll never be content angel: we should just stop thinking angel: and meditate on what we have billy: if we all do that we don't really need universal love then
angel: why are you always online? angel: are you at work? billy: yeah, i'm at work
billy: lol..you've been online just as much
angel: that’s because i like distraction when i'm trying to do homework angel: and i'm always trying to do hw billy: but yeah...i'm usually only on at work. lately at least
billy: although i'll come around to talk to a few certain people at night
angel: doesn't it feel lacking to spend so much time in your own head, or this virtual world that only exists in your own minds billy: my own head...no. i think my head is a wonderful place to spend time. and i don't believe that it's virtual space
billy: i mean...people used to fall in love and get married almost completely by correspondence
billy: you can have real relationships online...as much as you could talking on the phone. there are just parts of the relationship that you can't explore
billy: and it's for each person to decide how important those parts are
and he's convinced that math doesn't suck the soul out of art
guillermo: yo billy: sup
guillermo: whats the good word mr. moreno billy: me. i'm good
billy: i wanna go back to school
billy: i've got things i'd like help learning
guillermo: like what billy: mostly the music...but i'd also like some real structured criticism and instruction on writing
guillermo: make sure you go to the right place guillermo: cuz i was like that about design and being at BMCC is the wrong move guillermo: i hate it guillermo: i'm learnign shit i know guillermo: wanna be advanced already billy: yeah, and i know i would be the same way. not that i would hate it, just that i wouldn't do it
billy: wouldn't go to english 101
billy: but if that's the only way to get into the advanced classes i owe it to myself to make the effort, cuz i want that advanced education...now if there're other ways to get it, i'm definitely not set on one in particular yet
billy: so school's not going good or it's just frustrating you?
guillermo: it’s just frustrating billy: how long before you get to the classes you want
guillermo: 2 semesters guillermo: after this one guillermo: can u believe that guillermo: oh and yes, i have to take english 101 billy: haha...don't worry about your grades though. unless you do.
billy: otherwise just make sure you pass
billy: and then do what you need to do to get the most out of the class
guillermo: are u reading my shit guillermo: i'm trying that guillermo: with the classes i'm taking now guillermo: but its too difficult billy: when i go back, i'm gonna ask my professors not to give me my grades
billy: why's it so difficult?
billy: and no, i'm not reading yet
guillermo: there are already too many distractions billy: get rid of them...whatever you think, it is up to you
guillermo: man guillermo: hoes billy: hoes...easy to ignore
guillermo: not for me billy: psh
guillermo: we're going to stop speaking guillermo: so u can read billy: will that work?
guillermo: READ! guillermo: you got me over here reading volumes billy: i know, now i feel guilty
billy: i will read
guillermo: lol billy: soon
billy: you might as well talk to me...i can't read right now
billy: i'm "looking" busy
guillermo: what if i just cut and paste billy: then i can give you a general idea of what i think of it
guillermo:
Too many have come,
ungoverned and done
absolutely
with [ phrases ] that
oscillate at the
locale derived tempo of
sensibility .- foreigners from
grey planets with dirt brown
tongues that grow in
chiseled esophagi and breathe
in difference from
winged lungs, airborne for
a nameless sake, careened
through some chasm to reach
this embrace:
this color, this rip some where beyond words
that holds my hand and
keeps its shape within
my
reach.
some unsuccessful and even
fewer of some sort at all.
My.God,
I have sat here swallowing times
coming for weeks on beginnings
that have meaningless ends and
birthed not one moment
that could match ours in
silence: what am I doing
with myself. simply put,
moons
glow through your eyelids
and raise lumps in my
throat. I have been
speaking mud for
about 4 weeks.
its hardened in my throat
and my crucified dreams
canít push through earthy periods,
so, please
spare me the insight.
spare me the beginnings.
whatever pen I can
manage
to
get
( my
hands )
on
will not
mark periods.
I charge your bare wombs
for baring witness in reflection
and demand an explanation
for your
piss in
this embrace:
this mother, this quip some where beyond words
that molds this man
and holds his shape
for dreams
to
teach.
time is not tasty.
guillermo: got it? billy: yep
guillermo: guillermo! billy: i'm reading, and certifying mail, and talking to a friend about wanting to burn her journals, but i am reading
guillermo: ok billy: guillermo!
guillermo: guillermo! billy: this was wonderful
guillermo: thanks billy: no really
guillermo: what'd u like? billy: the repetitions, the line breaks, the concrete but unreal imagery, the playfulness of language
billy: the fucking emotion
guillermo: thanks man guillermo: i tried to make all the line breaks meaningful guillermo: not just for the rhythm of it billy: no really...this was lighter linguistically than most of the pieces you write but just as emotionally heavy
guillermo: thats what i'm going for guillermo: cool billy: yeah, i try to line break to create layers of images off of a single stretch of words
guillermo: my fav is this: "with myself. simply put," billy: the middle of the end is wonderful too
billy: especially the "this mother..." line
guillermo: thanks billy: so how do you feel about it?
(no response. 15 minutes later…)
billy: yeah. pretty much
guillermo: thats what I told him billy: well he said that you said more than you should have but less than he wanted to hear
billy: and i heard things elsewhere too
guillermo: i never said anything
…
guillermo: i'm dling ths program that charts your mood for 20 days guillermo: think that'll helpp with my experiment guillermo: 20 days at a time guillermo: that is billy: if it's sophisticated enough
billy: you think your algorithm is as simple as being on a time-cycle?
guillermo: no guillermo: i dont know what it is though billy: ok, cuz i always knew you were feminine. but a lunar cycle would've sealed it
guillermo: having this information would be good though guillermo: lol guillermo: just to see what i write in relation to certain "mood statistics" billy: well let me know how it works and what you come up with
guillermo: just trying out new things guillermo: as much as possible guillermo: did you read what i put up in ego? guillermo: in iunctura? billy: nope...didn't realize anything was up
guillermo: put it up last night guillermo: http://www.konvulsenine.com/version1/ego/random.htm billy: i like that...although i still disagree
billy: but it should be mad interesting
billy: so i'll try and be sure to let you know what criticism i have as i read and react
guillermo: wasi clear enough? billy: yeah
billy: and i really still do disagree
billy: really
billy: so challenge me
billy: genius
billy: and i'm not gonna change my line breaks just cuz you think you can figure me out, fool
billy: lol
billy: brb
guillermo: http://www.metalmaker.net/ guillermo: LOL guillermo: but i'm not going for that type of thing billy: lol...is that a joke?
guillermo: lol guillermo: don’t know guillermo: i've seen a lot of those lyric generators guillermo: i think what i'm doing is a lot more intimate though billy: but not as intimate as it could be
guillermo: touche billy: maybe
billy: but it's not fault of your own. just i think the project is necessarily limited and doomed to approximation
billy: but fascinating
guillermo: doomed to approximation guillermo: better than nothing billy: nothing isn't the only other option
billy: i might have to rewrite faust for you my friend
guillermo: but it's worse than something guillermo: which is my only point guillermo: and i Plato for you guillermo: which is what I intend to do guillermo: for all you niggas billy: do you...i'm flattered
billy: so you consider yourself something of an aristotle, hmmm....
billy: you could have everything, if you stopped trying to have everyone...but i really do think you should do this (like i'm gonna decide your course either way)
billy: yo, on silentfusion...you need to fix it so that in the comments areas when people's names link out to their own sites it opens it's own window
guillermo: oh ok guillermo: my bust billy: no sweat
billy: when was the last time i heard "my bust"
guillermo: lol billy: mary hasn't been around in days. emailed me once saying she was real busy. and a few other emails here and there. but i'd like to talk to her. that's all
guillermo: aww poor baby billy: it's cool
me and bob (my brother) drove to houston to hang out with our stepbrother rush on saturday. we picked him up from work at about 7, met up with some of his friends, grabbed a guitar and some bongo drums and hopped over to the local gay/club district.
and then we rocked the street.
we started out just walking around and playing and singing for people that we ran into. we went into mcdonald's and serenaded the kids in the playscape. they poked out there heads to watch but didn't come all the way out. one of the kids dad stood in the window with his little little daughter (she was a cutie) and watched us. i don't know if he was sure what to think at first, but he figured out that we weren't harassing them (although bob is a very aggressive singer). then we brought the show inside. played a song for the customers and crew. got a nice round of applause and then left.
we tried playing for this tattoo parlor but they kicked us out. the response from the second tattoo parlor we played for was hard to read. the people were smiling, but menacing. one girl came up to the door and stood there listening, didn't say anything, then just went back in. but at least they didn't call the cops like rush thought they were going to.
next we hit up hollywood video (a blockbuster-type video superstore if you don't know). and this time we had a plan. we walked in with our instruments holstered. and while people stared at us oddly we scattered and made our way to the big panel of snowy t.v.'s, struck an overblown 80's rock pose, and proceeded to ROCK! after a loud intro, we once again scattered and bob improvised an anthem from snippets off the back of video cases. people were loving it.
the main part of the night we camped out in front of a gay bookstore (although we weren't allowed to sit in their outdoor area (that was really just the sidewalk with their chairs on it) unless we all bought coffee). we stopped traffic. we made $7. people requested songs (any and every request got "black dog" instead). we got interviewed by some college kids from a bible studying school who were asking about truth. bob said he could only come up with an answer in song. he said something about bean curd and tofu being the same thing and the girl that was with them was after him all night about it. they sat down with us and she played one of our drums (much better than we did). it's cool though - they're going to show that tape to their class. we're gonna be stars. and i'm gonna be known as the guy who doesn't believe truth is that relevant (and at the same time...that i have a better idea of what's what than most people). then it got cold and we went home.
we spent the night at rush's mother's house. my mom called at noon and she was pissed cuz we hadn't left yet. then she was pissed cuz i said we were gonna stick around that afternoon to go to the bob marley festival. we ended up not cuz i didn't wanna have to deal with her. my mother's way too possessive. we didn't leave for an hour and a half after i talked to her (cuz rush's mom made us breakfast). so when we get home she comes into my room and with all seriousness asks if i have a crush on rush's mother. (after telling me that i was insensitive for taking bob away all weekend.) so i told her she was a fool. and that was that. she really is a fool. and jealous. and throws tantrums. and and and.
Billy: my dick'll tickle your elbow/ this pickle is well-known
guest vocalist: how well? Billy: see these adidas shelltoes. it helps sell those
Billy: haha
guest vocalist: lol Billy: so what up
guest vocalist: i can feel myself slipping into my old habits guest vocalist: skipping class guest vocalist: you're still writing? Billy: slowed down some. a page this whole last week
Billy: but that's mostly cuz i've been busy
Billy: mostly
Billy: also a little stuck
Billy: and i started messing around with the music too
guest vocalist: ah that's right Billy: is it
guest vocalist: yes. the guitar pieces guest vocalist: the wonderful chords guest vocalist: i'm going to try to write today Billy: wonderful...are you teasing me?
Billy: any ideas or just gonna sit?
guest vocalist: teasing of course lol guest vocalist: some ideas Billy: bastard
Billy: you'll see...one day you'll see
guest vocalist: i really do hope so Billy: when i get away from working i'm gonna take some music theory classes...prolly piano too
Billy: what ideas though
guest vocalist: i wonder what they cover in music theory guest vocalist: and if they give math the props it deserves...random ideas Billy: i know that in my intro to music class we talked about math pretty frequently when we were covering classical music and of course when we were talking about the actual sounds and colors
Billy: but you can't write by math
Billy: it won't be irrational enough
guest vocalist: *sighing* guest vocalist: billy billy billy Billy: lol...what
guest vocalist: don't ever say anything like that to me again guest vocalist: i wish i could explain this to you guest vocalist: this is why that section of my site isn't up...i have to word this perfectly guest vocalist: and study more guest vocalist: i think it'll just be a journal of my thoughts Billy: don't ever say anything like that to you again...and then a whole lot of inconclusiveness
Billy: i'm lost
guest vocalist: yeah so sorry guest vocalist: lemme give it a shot Billy: please
guest vocalist: i'm starting to believe that there is no such thing as irrational thought Billy: listening
guest vocalist: i think an algorithm can be derived to explain just about everything. guest vocalist: music, poetry, whatever...your style is an algorithm guest vocalist: mine is Billy: that sounds like a terrible aesthetic
guest vocalist: or the result of one, rather Billy: ok, say you derive your style to or from an algorithm
Billy: either way, how do you decide what is attractive?
guest vocalist: no wait, lemme reword guest vocalist: your style is the algorithm itself...yeah lol.. Billy: especially if you've already said that everything can be explained as such so it's not like that's a distinguishing factor that makes a particular style attractive
guest vocalist: you've got all these elements that contribute to the way you write/paint/etc. Billy: lol...that was deep.
guest vocalist: what we see as attractive can be explained mathematically too Billy: there's no freedom in math. there's no will. there's no self
Billy: that's ugly
guest vocalist: that's life guest vocalist: and there is freedom guest vocalist: its just limited guest vocalist: you're allowed to do whatever you want Billy: ok, tell me this. is the algorithm only there after the fact (with a new one present after every fact)?
guest vocalist: but eventually i think we all limit ourselves Billy: or do you act according to a preexisting algorithm?
guest vocalist: when new elements are introduced, the algorithm changes guest vocalist: its not pre-existing guest vocalist: no Billy: well, that's goofy
guest vocalist: how so Billy: i mean of course you can correlate a set of arbitrary definitions to something that has already happened
guest vocalist: what're u talking about? Billy: ok...are you saying that someone can explain every act that happens from here on out without introducing any new terms or definitions?
guest vocalist: NO guest vocalist: guest vocalist: i'm starting to believe that there is no such thing as irrational thought Billy: yeah, but there's a difference between saying that you can describe a thought after the fact and saying that you can describe it before it 's thought
Billy: there's power in the latter, none in the former
Billy: brb....keep talking and don't you dare leave
guest vocalist: ah i see what you mean. what i'm suggesting, for example, is that i may be able to predict or maybe even write the same poem you'll write, given the same inspiration, as long as i know all the elements that makeup your algorithm and how they're related to each other guest vocalist: and as far as irrational thought goes, i just don't think it exists. reason is relative, so there can be no absolute irrationality. and here i am joining too unrelated things guest vocalist: they are related i guess Billy: yeah they are...lemme think for a second
guest vocalist: oooh guest vocalist: guest vocalist: i think an algorithm can be derived to explain just about everything. guest vocalist: that's where i fucked up guest vocalist: sorry Billy: why is that where you fucked up? you draw a line between art and everything?
guest vocalist: i mean guest vocalist: i cant predict who'll marry who guest vocalist: even though its all pre-destined Billy: so you're saying there's no will still. you could write the same poem i would write if you knew everything relevant before the moment of the action
Billy: but are you saying you can't predict that cuz you're not capable enough or cuz it's not possible?
guest vocalist: right...and how all those things relate to each other guest vocalist: i cant predict that because i don't have the capacity to do so Billy: so you're treating will as being able to do whatever you want and want as a sum of all of your factors and their relationships and however they algorithmically play out?
Billy: i've thought about it...and i agree that people never do anything they don't want to in that broader sense of want
Billy: but i don't think you can account for the will rationally
Billy: and until you do almost completely...i don't know that i could be convinced
Billy: cuz the will doesn't have to be the whole person and as long as their is error in prediction there is room for the will
Billy: no?
Billy: and i mean an irrational will
guest vocalist: all right, i'll reply line by line, tell me if i'm being contradictory Billy: k
guest vocalist: i'm treating will and style as two different things. i AM saying that you can do "whatever you want and want as a sum of all of your factors and their relationships and however they algorithmically play out?", and i also think that WHAT you want is also pre-destined Billy: (i am waiting for more right...before i respond?)
guest vocalist: right Billy: k
guest vocalist: I don't have the capacity to predict or rationally explain anyone's destiny. but i do believe in clairvoyance, so obviously there are people that can. whether or not it can be explained mathematically i guess i really don't know, but i just know shit is all pre-determined guest vocalist: determined guest vocalist: as far as style goes guest vocalist: in art at least Billy: how do you know?
guest vocalist: i guess after reading all these poems and stuff i've begun to see patterns in them, yours especially, and its lead me to believe that i can probably sum it up mathematically Billy: now i really don't like myself
guest vocalist: wait, the "as far as art goes..." and everything after that is unrelated guest vocalist: to the will stuff Billy: so you don't believe when i'm writing that i have equally appealing choices and i just pick one?
Billy: or that i ever just throw stuff in for randomness and weave it in and rationalize it after the fact?
guest vocalist: no i don't believe that guest vocalist: at least not right now guest vocalist: right..as far as the randomness goes guest vocalist: i've tried it in my head with one poem guest vocalist: of mine at least guest vocalist: where i threw in something random guest vocalist: and if i just treated it as a variable Billy: then what?
guest vocalist: like, as a loose example: a few abstract lines, more basic ones, more abstraction, something random, abstraction about the random element, then it loops Billy: yeah
guest vocalist: see what i mean? that's like really loose though Billy: ok how bout this...if i wrote only for myself, i could satisfactorily write completely abstract. but writing for people to read and to communicate the irrationality of self i constantly touch back on rational relate-able things
Billy: but i couldn't tell you before hand when abstract, irrational imagery is going to manifest
Billy: and i could only tell you after that part was written, what rational parts would be written and why
Billy: but that's because i'm trying to be rational
Billy: which really just means communicable
Billy: but now i really wanna go back and study math so i can see how you're applying this to yourself and feeling like it's an encompassing summary
guest vocalist: i think you could tell me beforehand guest vocalist: if you studied yourself and your work well enough Billy: only once i decided
guest vocalist: in relation to your moods or whatever else plays a part in what you write guest vocalist: no not once you decided guest vocalist: that's what i'm saying Billy: cuz me telling you is a self-prophecy and those are tainted
Billy: it would have to be someone else
guest vocalist: its kinda like how you can "predict" the weather guest vocalist: that's what i'm basically getting at guest vocalist: if you know what goes into all the shit, you can predict the result guest vocalist: with some degree of accuracy guest vocalist: its not far fetched at all i think guest vocalist: people are just too stuck on an idea of themselves as spontaneous artists to accept that Billy: but that's what i'm saying...with all the knowledge and all the facts shouldn't you be able to predict exactly
guest vocalist: shit i'm sure you can Billy: why do you keep admitting some small inaccuracy
Billy: are you
guest vocalist: i just cant now Billy: lol
guest vocalist: just being realistic guest vocalist: i think Billy: accept that you're assuming things are predetermined
guest vocalist: i'm scared i guess lol Billy: and ignoring the fact that there is chaos at the fundamental level of physical existence
Billy: as far as anyone knows
guest vocalist: well yes i am Billy: and you're assuming all these things to support an idea that gets you absolutely nothing
guest vocalist: what do u mean by absolutely nothing? guest vocalist: i think i've mad enough sense of this Billy: i'll break it down for you
guest vocalist: to battle you right now Billy: there's for possibilities...you can be predetermined and assume it, or be it and assume you're not (and that you are free). or you can be free and assume you're predetermined or be free and assume you're free
guest vocalist: and i'm saying that everyone does the second Billy: if you're predetermined it's not up to you what you assume so that side is a wash
Billy: and if you're free and you assume you're predetermined you take absolutely no control or responsibility for you
guest vocalist: that's wrong guest vocalist: the first at least Billy: how?
guest vocalist: the way you worded it originally, its correct guest vocalist: assumptions can still exists whether or not you're predetermined Billy: originally?
guest vocalist: you said: you can be predetermined and assume it, or be it and assume you're not (and that you are free). Billy: yeah...but i'm breaking down the impact of each of the four possibilities
guest vocalist: the impact. but who's talking about that? guest vocalist: i'm not. Billy: there's for possibilities...1.you can be predetermined and assume it, 2.or be it and assume you're not (and that you are free). or 3.you can be free and assume you're predetermined or 4.be free and assume you're free
guest vocalist: understood Billy: yeah, but i'm asking you why you would accept that you're predetermined without having absolutely no other choice?
Billy: what do you get out of it
guest vocalist: what do you mean what do i get out of it? guest vocalist: i don’t get anything guest vocalist: there doesn't have to be an end result, aside from the truth guest vocalist: i don’t have to "end up" with anything
Billy: but you don't even know it's the truth guest vocalist: i'm trying to figure that out guest vocalist: and if it is the truth Billy: and really...you're the one that said that everything is a result of your algorithmic "wants"
guest vocalist: then i'm fine with ending up with nothing Billy: so whatever you're assuming it must be cuz you're trying to get something out of it
guest vocalist: right. which was wrong. so yes, your algorithm is predetermined Billy: yeah, and buddah wanted nothing too. but it wasn't a dissolution of self
Billy: it was just another desire
guest vocalist: so? Billy: so look at it in those terms...which of the four assumption/reality scenarios is most facilitative to you finding out the truth?
guest vocalist: i already told you that it was #2 Billy: no you assume that that is the truth....but we're agreeing that neither of us knows it is or it isn't
Billy: t
guest vocalist: ok. so let me get this straight. you're arguing that my belief is unfounded because i don’t know whether or not its the truth? Billy: so allowing that it could be true or false...which assumption makes it easiest to figure out (only cuz i'm assuming that's what you're trying to do)
guest vocalist: by your logic then beliefs are meaningless guest vocalist: i'd still say the second assumption Billy: ok, so explain to me why you say the second
guest vocalist: billy? guest vocalist: oh Billy: sorry, just some work things in the way
guest vocalist: first, the 'you' that you're using in those assumptions is referring to me? Billy: beliefs aren't meaningless. they are a force of will, and that's why i question a belief that denies will
guest vocalist: beliefs aren't necessarily a force of will Billy: which ones...i'll try and keep the you's separate from here on
Billy: not necessarily...if predetermination is true than that is the only meaningful force
Billy: but we're speaking in doubt of that fact
guest vocalist: well lemme put it like this: I believe that I'm predetermined and I, at the same time, assume it. guest vocalist: yeah but that's clearly not how you meant it guest vocalist: why do you always do that? Billy: but the belief and the assumption are the same thing
Billy: do what?
Billy: i mean, belief and assumption are the same thing
guest vocalist: its like you play devil's advocate for both teams just so you make sure you get some minutes in guest vocalist: u said this: they are a force of will, and that's why i question a belief that denies will guest vocalist: then said this: not necessarily...if predetermination is true than that is the only meaningful force Billy: ok...sorry. i'm working under the assumption that people are free so belief is an extension of will
Billy: (and hey, i'm not that desperate to play)
Billy: but if predetermination is true (which is why i say that i assume free will), then beliefs aren't forces in themselves. they are just a named part of the whole predetermined system
guest vocalist: that’s right Billy: ok
Billy: so if we're predetermined, it doesn't matter (there is no force in) what we think.
guest vocalist: right Billy: which is why i said earlier that scenarios 1 and 2 are a wash
guest vocalist: but for now, in this moment guest vocalist: in order for me to figure it out guest vocalist: i have to assume that i am pre-determined guest vocalist: and i was confused and saying the second because i thought your use of "you" was all encompassing Billy: no...if you assume you're predetermined in this moment what happens if you aren't
guest vocalist: nothing Billy: lol...yeah i guess
guest vocalist: but if i assume that i'm not, how am i gonna figure this out? Billy: because if you are, you will be forced into a position that you have no choice but to recognize it
Billy: if you assume that you are, how do you plan on figuring it out?
guest vocalist: the way everything else gets figured out Billy: if you are, you won't figure it out unless You do
guest vocalist: i will, but by no will of mine Billy: there is no you to figure it out
guest vocalist: right Billy: so once again, assuming that does help you figure anything out
guest vocalist: but i have to be in the right state of mind to figure it out. so again, by no will of mine, my belief stands guest vocalist: though its not really my belief guest vocalist: the belief is just a step in me figuring out/not figuring out this thing Billy: assuming you're predetermined
guest vocalist: right Billy: so are you saying that if you assume you're free you have no more power in figuring it out
guest vocalist: i'm saying that i'm incapable of assuming that i have no power to figure it out because its already been determined that i assume that i do Billy: but you still don't know that you're predetermined and you're already giving up to it
guest vocalist: because its been predetermined that way Billy: only if it is
guest vocalist: right Billy: and you can't be without doubt that it is
guest vocalist: no. because i believe it is. Billy: but you can't prove it...there has to be a reasonable doubt in your mind. not overwhelming, just an admission that you might be wrong.
Billy: once again...i gotta run the route. don't leave though
guest vocalist: at this moment in time, there isn't guest vocalist: when one arises, i'll let u know guest vocalist: ok Billy: hold on
Billy: i'm scared i guess lol...Doubt
Billy: brb
Billy: back
Billy: are you done...do you feel like you can't go on anymore or do you just not want to and you're going to use predetermination as an excuse?
guest vocalist: i guess i'm done Billy: lol...and you know what. assuming freedom, i get irrelevance, and don't end up with anymore personal responsibility either way
Billy: ok...well maybe you'll agree on this. humanly possible mathematics is not sophisticated enough to create the illusion of spontaneity present in "great" art
guest vocalist: i don’t know. i'm reading something about what mathematics is humanly possible right now guest vocalist: so i'll get back to you on that Billy: you do that...hey, i didn't kill all the enjoyability in that conversation, did i?
guest vocalist: you never do Billy: and do you really think, i'm that formulaic
guest vocalist: i just got mad confused Billy: writing-wise
guest vocalist: since i hadn't really thought it through already guest vocalist: enough Billy: but enough that my writing made it clear to you that style was formulaic
Billy: as opposed to someone else's
guest vocalist: what? guest vocalist: reword that Billy: you see more formulaity in my writing than in other people's such that my writing made it clear to you that style is formulaic?
guest vocalist: oh no not at all guest vocalist: i just study your shit more Billy: lol...but you do think i'm stuck on the idea that i'm spontaneously artistic?
guest vocalist: yeah. i think we all are guest vocalist: although lol guest vocalist: nothing guest vocalist: yes Billy: no...say it
Billy: dammit...say it
Billy: i mean it....finish the thought
guest vocalist: no billy Billy: i'll trade you
Billy: you get to see my feelings about spontaneous art, if you spill
guest vocalist: i don’t care about your feelings bitch Billy: lol
Billy: you suck
guest vocalist: i was just gonna say that i haven't been able to write in part because i thought my shit was coming out too formulaic Billy: so you think you're really stuck on the idea that art should be spontaneous
Billy: well, a deal's a deal:
Billy: that i have to respond to...i hate the idea of being spontaneously artistic, i don't like the idea that art is inspired. there's such a connotation (and myth) of a lack of control over art...especially good art. it's as depressing as the idea that we're determined and that our art is just a manifestation of that. i want (and it bothers me when i feel like i don't have) complete control over my artistic output.
Billy: oh...and the "that i have to respond to" was about your original spontaneous artist comment
guest vocalist: sounds good Billy: is it consistent with everything else i've been saying?
guest vocalist: sure Billy: lol...so everything else i was saying was a contradictory and confusing mess too
Billy: have you noticed this pattern...i tend towards complete arrogance in action with afterthoughts of self-deprecation
guest vocalist: BILLY JESUS guest vocalist: lol Billy: that's me
guest vocalist: are you mocking me??? Billy: not at all...just recognizing a pattern
Billy: for whatever it's worth
guest vocalist: clown Billy: lol...hush
Billy: so are you sitting down to write yet?
guest vocalist: about to guest vocalist: after i watch dragonball z Billy: ok...lol. i haven't watched that show in quite some time
Billy: used to watch it every week freshman year though
Billy: yo, if you wanna figure out the truth though, test the negative hypothesis
guest vocalist: dammit i know guest vocalist: i'm a fucking scientist Billy: yeah, but you're test seems to be integrally biased, dr. bob
guest vocalist: iklcnldwnciodnwilcnliw guest vocalist: ukcbdkwjnckdnwqocnodc uibwqkcjb Billy: true
Billy: go watch your cartoons
Billy: this is going on my page...do want your screenname concealed?
guest vocalist: i don’t want this on your page guest vocalist: because i sound foolish Billy: and i sound like a genius
Billy: what's your point
guest vocalist: i was figuring it out while i was talking to you Billy: really though, how do you sound foolish? cuz you have an idea
guest vocalist: ah whatever guest vocalist: do whatever Billy: nah, i won't if you don't want...
Billy: even if i don't understand why you don't want...but you mean cuz you were trying to figure out what you were saying while we were talking?
Billy: i could always just remove both the names
guest vocalist: the latter guest vocalist: doesn't really matter Billy: and you mean that (the "it doesn't really matter") or you're just saying it
guest vocalist: mean it Billy: ok
Billy: cool
Billy: have fun writing
